JA Reads and Explains "These Lacustrine Cities" on Bruce Kawin's Radio Show (1966)

Jeff Hipsher has posted this excellent interview that Bruce Kawin conducted with John Ashbery in, I would guess, spring 1966. At the time Bruce hosted a half-hour radio show, "Literary Workshop," on WKCR, Columbia's radio station. (He was editor-in-chief of Columbia Review in my freshman year.) The interview begins with JA reading "These Lacustrine Cities," the opening poem in Rivers and Mountains, his 1965 collection. Far less reticent than in later years, JA -- then still in his 30s -- responds at length to questions and says he believes that all poetry must communicate and that he hopes his poems do. The line between "incomprehensible" and "obscure" must be drawn, he says. He patiently explains "These  Lacustrine Cities" line by line. The pronouns in his poems, he says, "can never be trusted to refer to any single person for any length of time," and illustrates with examples. The conversation with Kawin is meant to disprove that poetry is "incomprehensible."

 

After doing his best to illuminate "These Lacustrine Cities," John is asked to read the poem a second time, and he does. Then he reads the title poem of River and Mountains, "Civilization and Its Discontents," "The Ecclesiast," and others from the recently published volume, which had been nominated for the National Book Award. The show lasts about 27 minutes. -- DL

 

https://media.sas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Ashbery/Ashbery-John_Complete-Reading_Interview-Bruce-Kawin_WKCR_5-5-66.mp3

 

 painting by Fairfield Porter,John Ashbery (Argyle Socks), 1952

Comments

[Mitch Sisskind]

This is a wonderful find and it's delightful to hear
JA and Bruce in their youth "of bricks. Who built it?"
In parsing "These Lacustrine Cities," the first poem
in his great book "Rivers and Mountains," JA goes
immediately into his "who, me?" crouch which I find
disappointing and hardly illuminating about a poem
that evinces and perhaps coyly parodies a
kind of Cold War spy novel sinister paranoia in lines
like "we have all-inclusive plans for you" and "you will
be happy here" that recall "1984" and O'Brien's
insidious patter while torturing Winston Smith.
But no problema, or poco problema. This tape is an
inspiring artifact. Oh, do not ask,'What is it?'
Let us go and make our visit.

[The Best American Poetry]

"Our Youth."

[The Best American Poetry]

There is that extra layer in the poem. "You" equals I equals the lonely citizen JA, and "we" are the employers of the secret police. Given this poet's loose use of pronouns, sparked by the insight that language is tautological (it is what it is), you might entertain the proposition that the poet is to the reader as O'Brien is to Winston Smith. -- DL